Confrontation from Subject

I was at a music festival in the park and took pictures of a local group of belly dancers. I had talked to 4 out of 6 ahead of time and they were good with it (all 4 signed releases so that I could use the images in a photobook I am working on).

After their performance, I asked the group leader if I could take a group shot and she posed everyone, I snapped the pic and all was good.....until she asked me for a print. I explained to her that I don't make my own prints, but she could order one off of my website. She got VERY nasty with me. I am such a non-confrontational person so this kind of a situation makes me very uncomfortable but yet, I don't want to give my work away either. Would like to know how other people have handled subjects who think they are entitled to a freebie just because they posed......

0 members like this

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Renee Graner on July 24, 2010 at 9:49am

I'm sure they did think she was insane because 1) one of the ladies was a paying customer who's family I had photographed last Christmas 2) two of the ladies told me they didn't care what I did with their pictures. It was suggested by someone on this forum that I "used" them, however, I felt used because I was clear on the purpose my taking their pictures and she was happy to comply (I should have suspected something was up by how excited she was to have her picture taken). As soon as the picture was taken, I was confronted with a very different person than the one I photographed.

Thanks Nathan, I appreciate your support. I do more more "gratis" work than any other photographer in town because I see it as a way to preserve the history of the people who live here (and yes, I'm not so dishonest that I won't admit there is self-promotion when I do this type of work). I ALWAYS say yes when asked to take promotional pictures of events in this area (was asked to take pics of the rodeo royalty while I was at the rodeo photographing the rodeo itself....supplied a disk with copyright release -- never even got a "thank you"). If this woman had said, "we are just getting started and need some help in promoting ourselves", I would not have said no to taking a different picture. I am basically a good person and always assume that others do not automatically think the worst of me as has happened here.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by nathan mccreery on July 24, 2010 at 12:41pm

I've thought a little bit more about the situation as described by Renee and I'm not so sure I'd have done different than she did. In fact she may be more gentle about it than I would have been. Why is it that everyone wants a piece of the photographer? I have been threatened as well and all I was doing was making a photograph of a tree or an interesting fallen down adobe structure. I didn't even cross a fence line. We live in a world that's gone nuts and everybody thinks they are owed something.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Papa Rotzzi on July 24, 2010 at 1:01pm

We live in a world that has gone nuts and everybody thinks they are owed something.. including photographers!

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by nathan mccreery on July 24, 2010 at 2:28pm

How so? I'm not asking for anything from anyone. In fact, I give information freely to anyone that wants it. If the event was a public event, and clearly it was, then there's no expectation of privacy from the belly dancers, since they chose a public venue in which to perform. I'm not real clear on the laws in this event, however it was a public event and I am a little unclear but it seems to me that it was an event that would, or could, ordinarily be covered by media. Are you suggesting that the local newspaper, should or would even bother to get releases? Or that they'd have been forthcoming with free 8x10's for each of the participants. That's very doubtful, and it is certain that they'd have enjoyed some revenue from the event. Why then is this any different. Unless the portrayal will be of them in some unseemly manner I don't think release are even needed and I don't think there is any reason for the lady to get bent out of shape, except that she wanted to be. Ms. Graner lives in a very small, rural, area and they operate in a very different way than large metro areas. Everybody knows everybody and everybodie's business, almost like a huge very extended family. I think the lady is just one of those folks in life that's angry and almost anything can set them off. Living in an area that's like that it's hard for me to understand what the ladies problem is.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Papa Rotzzi on July 24, 2010 at 4:35pm

Miss Graner did not present the narrative of a journalist on assignment. She presented one of a photographer working on a book. The laws/customs/traditions are different covering a journalist versus a person on a commercial venture. And the discussion is not really even about copyright/releases/privacy.
(But, that aside, the fact that Miss Garner was attempting to get said releases would imply that there could be enough of a line between journalism and commercial use that a release would be required.)

What this issue boils down to for me is that.. this troupe did not engage, hire, request, solicit, or beg Miss Garner's services. She approached them because she desired their participation in her book. They did not "hire" her... she "hired" them. If somebody comes to me and asks me to take their photograph, I have every right to expect payment for that. Why is it so unreasonable for the troupe to expect a little something when I approach them?

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Renee Graner on July 24, 2010 at 7:11pm

Amen sista....I mean brotha!

They were in a public forum, in which I don't believe I needed a release. However, I always attempt to be up front, honest and make sure it's OK with anyone before I photograph them.
That said, this "person" recognized an opportunity to hold me hostage for her consent. I've photographed over 200 persons for this particular project. I hope to shoot another 200 before the end of the year. Should I give them each an 8x10 print for their participation?!? I think not! The paper has ran a feature on this venture, I talk about it frequently on Facebook and to anyone that will listen. Once summer has finished and the tourists have gone home, the historical society will send out letters to those who they would like to invite into participation.

Enough said on this subject! I just was asking how to handle a person who does an about face and attempts to hold me hostage for their own gain?!?

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by CameraClicker on July 25, 2010 at 12:40pm

If you use a picture of someone identifiable in a book you need a release, in the US and many other places. If you are selling a picture of someone identifiable to a newspaper, you may need a release for the sale however, the newspaper does not need a release to publish the photo as part of a news item. If you worked for the newspaper and took the photo on their behalf, you would not need a release and neither would the newspaper. If you take a photo of someone in public, they have no expectation of privacy and so, you can post it here for instance as a non-commercial photo without a release. If you wanted to use the same photo in a book or for advertising, you would need a release. Law can be a convoluted pain!

To be sure the above is correct, consult a lawyer specializing in this area of law, in the relevant jurisdiction and present the facts as they are for an informed opinion.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Argumaniz Photography--Trish on July 24, 2010 at 2:56pm

I am not a professional, and have never been paid for my photos. I have however considered the idea of doing so in the near future. The question this back and forth brings to my mind is exactly how much does it cost one to get 6 prints made for a group of 6? Is it so much that it really in fact does leave you feeling ripped off? This could be a cause for concern to anyone looking to make money in this business.

I have ordered prints myself and always found them more than reasonable, but that is in comparison to the cost of a photography company charging me $50 for four 3 x 5's, two 5 x 7's, and one 8 x 10.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by nathan mccreery on July 24, 2010 at 3:42pm

This is way off topic but here goes. Frankly, "a company photography company charging me $50 for four 3 x 5's, two 5 x 7's, and one 8 x 10" is really giving their work away. You would easily expect to pay at least $50.00 per 8x10 in a middle to larger market. At a top tier studio, probably considerably more. However, and I have preached this sermon often, you really need to get some education before you begin doing" professional work". For one thing, you need knowledge in order to do really high quality work; and yes it is hard work and a lot of late nights if you are going to operate as a professional. Recently I ignited a major battle on this website by espousing this view but I fervently believe it so I hope this doesn't do the same. If you don't take the time to educate yourself you are cheating yourself and you clientele. Please be fair to them and yourself.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Argumaniz Photography--Trish on July 24, 2010 at 7:47pm

Nathan, you are correct in the fact that a TOP TIER company could easily ask for more than that. The market that I refuse to pay that amount for are the school photography companies that go in, produce the same picture, using different kids across several different districts. They are generally cheaply done, but because the company has the hold on the local market, they get the business and charge what they charge. An example of the work I DID pay for, a class picture of about 26 students on a bleacher where the FLOOR in the front of them became the CENTER of the photo and the top row of kids were blurred. That's right, the school sent that home and the company charged us $13 a piece for that. I have simply realized that the true power is in my checkbook.

Now, I want to say that I fully agree with you that education is a must. I don't understand where you would be battled on that one. I have been urged by several friends and family members to just jump in, and I refuse because I believe in KNOWING the craft first. That is why I am here and asking questions too. Being naturally good at something doesn't make you the best you can be.

My question wasn't so off topic though. I asked the question because I was wondering in reality how much it would cost her to get the print. If it was a few $ then it wouldn't seem worth burning a bridge. If it were a more extensive amount, then perhaps the decision she made was correct. That is all I wanted to know. For all I know the quality of print she gets from where she orders is far better than anything I have ever paid for.

Thanks for humoring me though.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by nathan mccreery on July 25, 2010 at 10:57am

If you begin checking at professional labs you'll find unit prices from a as low as about $1.00 per 8x10 to $3.00 or more. I don't know why the disparity in pricing. I do know that I always try to be in the middle somewhere on prices from the labs I use. So, the question comes up; "why do you charge so much more than just the $2.30 cents you pay for the basic print. There are a number of reasons. 1. On a typical family portrait session I may spend as much as 6-8 hours retouching and preparing the complete order for submission to the lab. That does not include camera time. 2. There are numerous obvious and hidden charges that must be paid for out of the price you charge for the 8x10 such as business, car, and health, and life insurance. You have to turn on the lights and pay for water and I could go on and on. In the film days it was commonly said that you should take your lab cost of an 8x10 and multiply by four or five to arrive at your sale price. That your lab bill should be about 20% of your gross sales. 25-30% was on the high side. I think, and have proven, that this method is folly. At this time I think it's common for studios to operate with lab costs being between 5 and 15% of what they charge for the photograph

What you charge for your services is a difficult question. I can tell you that in the thirty years that I have done studio work I have been guilty, often, of not charging enough, but I charged what I thought the market would bear. I also am convinced that most photographers don't charge enough and that we lead with our emotions and creativity rather than with good business sense; which is what Renee displayed when she refused to be bullied into a "gimme". If you charge "lowball" rates people won't respect you and the work won't have value to them so get your prices up!