The Golden Ratio
Is the "Rule of Thirds" just the lazy man's "Golden Ratio"? How does the ratio relate to your photography? If you didn't know about the ratio before will you conscientiously use it in future shoots?
Fibonacci Spiral
Fibonacci Spiral
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by nathan mccreery on -
Edward Weston, one of Ansel Adams mentors and colleague, said, and this is a direct quote; "no-one can teach another to see. Composition is a way of seeing, strong or weak according to the individual. If composition could be taught everyone might become an artist. Rules of composition are derived from the works of great masters and used by weak imitators to create nothing". I believe, very strongly, that rules of composition are a hindrance to the truly artistic and a crutch for those who want to be an artist but don't have the raw material inside them. If you study, in great detail, the work of great artists in any media you won't find, in their writing or in their work the use of "rules of composition". The rule of thirds is based on an arcane mathematical formula that has little relevance to the creation of works of art, and I bristle at the teaching of "academics" who tout the "golden mean", the golden rectangle", the "rule of thirds" etc. As if using them will magically allow someone who is otherwise artistically tone deaf to create great works of art.
Do I consciously use the rule of thirds, or any other external compositional guideline; most emphatically no!
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Permalink Reply by Sean on -
Though rules are made to be broken, the rules do help with the basics. And the basics is where most of us start out. Though some people try to leapfrog and miss out.
But the question is about the rule of thirds just being one small part of the golden ratio. The rule of thirds being a dumbed down version. The golden ratio is a reflection of things found in nature or at least man trying to figure out what nature is about or at least fitting it into an understandable equation. I am not saying that you should stay within it but you should know the concept, more so than the rule of thirds. Though we may not want to think we try to follow these rules many time we fall into them via our eye. I'm sure many of us do not necessarily have the rule in mind when we compose a photograph, but when all is said and done...there is our work falling right in line with many of the "rules".
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Permalink Reply by nathan mccreery on
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"Though we may not want to think we try to follow these rules many time we fall into them via our eye." This statement is exactly my point. Great composition comes from what is in us, probably from birth. While I don't subscribe to the notion of talent, per se, I do believe that there is almost a sixth sense in people who are born to be artists. It isn't provable but I believe it is so basic to some people that it may be in their DNA. Those are the ones that are born to be visual artists. I have no intent here to be cruel but there are a lot of people who want to be photographic artists, and will probably never be very good at it because they are the visual equivalent of tone deaf. It isn't a cruel statement, it's just reality. I have a very difficult time with a balance sheet. Does that mean I'm stupid? Not by any means, it only means that book keeping isn't my gifting.
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Permalink Reply by Ed Harp on -
I've taught photography and juried many competitions for the last 20+ years. Rules certainly help those who may not at first have a "truly artistic" gift. Some gifts are learned and mentored and then at some point the fledgling is shoved out of the nest to create his/her own works of art. I agree that the rule of thirds is only a rule and perhaps one of the most elementary rules at that. But after composing everything dead in the center of the image for a few years as a snapshot photographer using a Canon Ftb and 50mm lens, I loved my perfectly centered images until someone tipped me about the rule of thirds. The rule of what? It was at that time for me a radical concept which at the very least taught me that there was more than one way to take a picture. Once I began to practice the rule of thirds it revolutionized my desire to practice photography and I was shoved out of the nest.
Am I limited by the rule of thirds? Of course not, however I have not ceased using it either. To me the crucial thing to strive for is an artistic balance within the confines of a frame. At least it expresses that there is both a mental and aesthetic process and not a mindless and spiritless process.
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Permalink Reply by nathan mccreery on
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My only point on this (rule of thirds) is that, while it may be liberating to some, it is also restrictive to many. By that I mean this. If you are taught from the beginning that the rule of thirds is the way to great composition, and you buy into it (why shouldn't you since your teacher taught it), then the art you do will be influenced, and even limited by it for the rest of your life. If a person subscribes to the "rule of thirds" and sees something that doesn't fit that mold will they then feel that they must "fit it in to the 'rule of thirds'"? I've seen it happen on more than one occasion. I was taught the rule of thirds in art school and it was amazing how many instructors taught it and then qualified the teaching by saying that although I should work in the "rule of thirds" in my classroom work that they didn't personally use the "rule of thirds" in their work. I was a non-traditional student when I was in art school and was old enough to say that it was pure nonsense. Either it is a rule or it isn't. If it is indeed a rule then it must be followed, just like traffic laws, or there will be consequences. Read Weston's quote; ...composition is a way of seeing, strong or weak, according to the individual...". While he may not be the final authority on the subject there is an eloquence in his work that cannot be argued. It's also interesting to me that the great masters of the medium, and by that I mean the giants, not a guy that wrote an article in a pop culture magazine, never reference rules of composition; at least not that I've found. It makes me think they may be onto something.
The only teachers I've heard teach the "rule of thirds" are one or two instructors in art school and PPofA platform speakers. Am I going to give validity to them or to Adams, Weston, Newman, Karsh etc. I pick Adams and company.
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Permalink Reply by Sean on
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Wow, this discussion has gone way south. The question was more so about the golden ratio and now is a discussion about the rule of thirds ( in my opinion is the retarded cousin). But Nathan, like it has been mentioned before, rules are meant to be broken. A good base but break the rules as you see fit. I would not consider rules in anything artistic as law. So, if you throw all the rules out the window and you study the "Masters" and you do not see what they see or think what they think, are you hopeless? Do we make our own definitions of compositions? Do you use anything for guidelines? If you do I would think that those would be your rules.
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Permalink Reply by nathan mccreery on
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The only rule I follow in art is this; try to find balance and harmony in your composition. Get rid of anything in the viewfinder that is a distraction such as elements that are incongruous with you subject. Make as complete a visual statement as you can, given the material you are working with. The only rule in art is beauty, and even that can be argued. That is the only rule I teach in my classroom. It is a more difficult path to follow than a simple rule.
FYI. I heard a man speak one time in a PPofA meeting on the "Power of Composition" and he was a big proponent of rules. He taught the rule of thirds, the rule of 13ths, and the rule of 21sts, as well as Fibonacci numbers as the basis of the golden mean etc. I even bought his book! But in the end it comes back to an individuals vision and the expression of that vision. If you have confidence in your vision then listen to it, not the opinion of someone else or the arbitrary rules set up by someone in the past.
I don't like to argue about these points but I do think the discussion is important and it is important to see that there are people who see rules of composition as irrelevant to the creative process.
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Permalink Reply by Marcia C on -
I will add just a quick comment without getting into a lengthy discussion.
I agree with Nathan, I think you are born with the artistic eye. You can try and try to teach others the rule of thirds for better composition and some will grasp it a little and others not. Even when using the rule of thirds does not make a it an artistic image.
I never even heard of the rule of thirds until I was on photography sites. Yet my photos were falling into the guidelines. I am an artist also and I just see differently I guess.Many describe me as a natural. I keep telling them it is a instinct I was born with since I am artistic.
Sometimes situations just do not lend themselves to the exact rule of thirds guideline. So, as the saying goes, rules are made to be broken. I try to take photos the way I would draw them or paint them. You just have to follow your own instinct sometimes.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Osborne on -
Great conversation. I'll go back to part of the Weston quote posted by Nathan. The key element of that statement is: Rules of composition are derived from the works of great masters. It is the artistic work that proves/drives the rule, not the other way around. Simply applying these rules is no guarantee of a great piece of art. It is the vision of the artist as expressed that makes the rules viable.
On the other side of the coin... Picasso did not start out painting masterpieces. Most artists go through an art "education" based upon principles of art.I like what Ed said (and is really common) he was placing things in the center of his photos all the time (and probably not always happy doing so). Once he saw a different way of seeing it changed his sight. Kind of like "eyeglasses" :-) It is when the great artists - to support their vision - use these "tools" in certain creative ways that great art is formed.
Perhaps that's the problem... these should not be "rules of composition", but rather "tools of composition".
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Permalink Reply by Jan Michael Vincent V Castillo on -
wow I sure love this discussion, lots of brilliant insights here
a few months back ,the site was photosig.com someone commented on my photo to be too centered and I should apply the rule of thirds, that was the first time I heard about it (and I thought in art there are no rules), I know I have no authority I'm just a beginner and one of those weak imitators who create nothing in this field but the rule of thirds really helped me frame and balance shots(at least to other fellow weak imitators), I think for newbies like me one should learn → understand those so called rules of composition before breaking them
as for the golden ration in composition sean I think I should have that spiral drawn on my viewfinder first lol
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Permalink Reply by Rob Zabroky on -
I don't follow rules too well....I will shoot for feel and sort what floats my boat. Did a shoot the other night, followed the rules of thirds and found the keeper, my keeper, was dead centered.
I tossed the thirds out with this one LOL! :) - Attachments:
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RapaNui.jpg, 29 KB
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